, how do explain the fact that numerous first time sufferers have posted messages such as   I have been noticing that I get breakouts after drinking a lot of milk. Can anyone tell me if there is a _link_ between milk and acne? I doubt very much that they are as unbiased as you claim. Even if they are unbiased, the problem with their observations is that they see an effect and are seeking a cause for it. While this is fine for making a theory, it is not fine for validating it; no matter how many people you refer to. You normally just can't seperate all factors in your life. E.g. if you drink/eat alot of something, you're likely to drink/eat less of something else, maybe even making your diet more monotony. You may not notice the latter and therefore (correctly or not) impute the effect to the former. What I would like is if somebody out there know of peer-reviewed articles in medical journals that deals with the correlation (or lack of same) between food and acne. Claiming that the research is out there isn't good enough. Lars

THATS the kind of posting that I like!  Thanks Laura!!!!! I had no idea that estheticians knew these sorts of things.  What sort of background do you have in medicine, Laura? Well, after battling adult acne in my late 30s, you know the routine, antibiotics (get a yeast infection now if I cross my eyes), topicals, etc. in addition to testing EVERY danged product on the market available to the public with no results and finally Accutane in 92-93 (5 months), I decided to become a skin care expert  Decided especially since I knew more about skin care (not having been trained) than the derm I was going to (he had no idea in 1991 what glycolic acid was).  So...I got my license, and worked, studied some more and sat for the CIDESCO examination, an internationally recognized standardized examination (people compare it to sitting for the bar for lawyers-I was a paralegal for 15 yrs).  This course of study encompassed Anatomy & Physiology, biology, chemistry, etc. - which I had never learned in school (public or beauty) so I had to teach myself from books.  There are less than 200 CIDESCO Diplomates in the United States - it is a two day exam in Europe/Canada.  My philosophy is to always make every effort to be the best you can be, and desire makes you learn more than any parent/teacher ever could.  I've been studying nutrition on my own for the last 6 months and am in a PhD program for holistic nutrition now.  So I don't have a medical background, but am REALLY into learning about stuff that affects the skin! Doesnt it frustrate the hell out of you when you hear people say that their derm told them that foods do not effect acne?  So many medical doctors in this country completely fail to see the bigger picture. They are as much victims of the drug companies as we are.  They get most of their info from the drug companies who make no money if people learn how to control their problems more effectively without drugs. Kind of sad. Exactly - one of my posts to another thread indicates that unfortunately, docs get about a days' worth of education on nutrition and that they've been taught to treat diseases with Rx's.  Now I have a lot of respect for the docs that take enough time with their patients and get down to the mat with them - lots of times it's a here try this approach - which is all you can do in some cases, since especially acne reacts so very differently from one person to the next - but there are some common threads, i.e., foods (milk, sugar, etc) Anyway, I'm glad you didn't find that too technical.  It helps me solidify it in my mind, too.  Best, Laura Root, CIDESCO Diplomate Body & Soul Esthetic Retreat Scottsdale, AZ  I think you're full of shit. You call yourself a skin care expert , but so do Mary Kay salesladies. You aren't a doctor. Like a lawyer, you danced around the subject, but never defined what a CIDESCO Diplomate is. You're about as much of a skin care expert as the women giving facials at the Clinique counter, aren't you? And exactly what univerisity grants phd's in in holistic nutrition ? It's a correspondence course, right? Or just some diploma mill. You and your ilk are charlatans. People get mad at dermatologists because their treatments don't always work. Well, that's the way it is. You just sell advice, some good, some bad, and false hope. The fact is, not all cases of acne can be treated successfully. And some people just won't accept that fact. There are even chiropractors here in my town that claim to be able to cure acne. The only thing they (and you) can cure is fat wallet syndrome.

Just to get one thing clear: Did you only have one course of Accutane? And changed your diet during that course? If that is the case, then how do you know which did the job? Diet or AC? Lars

You and your ilk are charlatans. People get mad at dermatologists because their treatments don't always work. Well, that's the way it is. You just sell advice, some good, some bad, and false hope. The fact is, not all cases of acne can be treated successfully. And some people just won't accept that fact. There are even chiropractors here in my town that claim to be able to cure acne. The only thing they (and you) can cure is fat wallet syndrome. I truly resent your attitude, sir.  You do not know me.  As you state, acne is a disease that varies in treatment - and not all doctors can help, neither can all skin care specialists.  I have NEVER been accused of bilking people in the false hope of curing their acne.  I have given advice to numerous people, for some it works, others it doesn't - and I'm not charging a darned thing for the information I relate to those on this group.  This is the same advice that I would give any client that came in to my office. Unfortunately, many people with severe acne are very desperate to obtain information, advice and treatment.  But there is no reason in the world for your behavior towards me and the information that I present.  I believe I am owed an apology. Laura Root, CIDESCO Diplomate Body & Soul Esthetic Retreat Scottsdale, AZ

All reputable reasearch is at odds with your conclusion. Like many people, you have misinterpreted your own experience, and have assumed that other people will respond the same way that you think that you have. But double-blind studies do not support your beleif. Acne has been shown, however to respond somewhat to the placebo effect. Why not just take some herbs, pray, sacrifice a chicken, or put some pins in a doll? If you believe strongly enough, it might help. I would love to see these conclusive double-blind studies that show that all foods in all types of people have absolutely no effect on skin whatsoever.   Please post! Reputable research from modern science?  These are the same people who told women for decades that cramps and PMS were all in their heads.  The fact is that modern science's approach to medicine is to automatically disbelieve and distrust any information that does not come from their club.  Since men didn't get cramps, women must be making it up!  And obviously, entire cultures such as the Chinese and the Indians must have medicated themselves for thousands of years just on the placebo effect alone!  <sarcasm off Imagine the strides that medicine could take if, instead of dismissing things that are not understood, like herbs and homeopathy, they were used as starting points for more research.  Like how aspirin was developed from white willow bark, and digitalis from foxglove.  Think of all the knowledge that is out there, just waiting for someone to discover it.   But people and their experiences have to be trusted first.  Over the years I have learned that doctors can be wrong, and that I must trust myself and my experiences first.       I find it amusing that both you and a doctor of dermatology feel so threatened that you feel the need to defend modern medicine.  No one here has attacked!  No one has said Don't take Accutane! .  No one has said Don't go to a derm, they're all quacks! .  So, why so defensive?  If food doesn't affect you, don't read the posts. Dee

If you could learn to speak without cursing, perhaps you should go to medical school and then share your wonderful knowledge and healing gifts with your patients. You could tell them that statistical studies aren't nearly as motherfucking important as your Goddamn motherfucking experience is, and any doctor who dares to disafuckinggree with you is a fucking jerkoff that you may have to motherfucking kill. You could kill any dermatologist who dares to tell his patients anything that does not conform with YOUR experience. And also any researcher who does not give YOUR  statements greater weight than than the rest of his data. BoB, Would you care to enlighten those of us that rely on our experience to govern our understanding of the world as to the place that we may find such studies that you seem to take such stock in.     May I offer up, to the gods of reason that govern those of us that care, that the problem with `scientific studies' of this nature is that they are non-selective.  I could conceive of this scenario:  You have 100 acne sufferers, with active cases.  You assume that from one spectrum to the other there will be all sorts of diets; both good and bad.  So that isnt part of the equation.  You tell half of them, who for the most part do not know about the connection between acne and food, that they are not to eat any tuna fish (iodione containing) for 2 months.  They all comply strictly.  The other you will assume eats a normal amount of Tuna.  They all come back into your office and you notice something amazing.  Remember, this is science!!!!  Are you ready?  They are all pretty much the same!  Some have gotten better, some worse in both control and test group.  Wow.  What does that mean? It means Tuna doesnt have any effect, right?  Ok.  Is that logical? Well, lets test it again with another kind of food.  How about Dairy Products?  Same scenario.  Most people drink lots of dairy anyways, so this one is a real good one.  They all comply (you know they do because you TOLD them to)  Humans will always listen to the doctor, dont yaknow?  But, for the purpose of this arguement, lets assume they do.  They leave, and come back 2 months later.  Same story.  No clinical connection found between dairy products and acne, right?  Of course.        Now, lets put this into perspective.  In both cases, both the control and the test group will eat just about everything else that normal people eat while the experiment is going on.  During the time that they are supposed to not eat dairy, they are consuming lots shellfish, fried foods with lots of IODIZED salt, peanut butter, and the other culprits in my opinion.  Guess what the effect of not eating dairy is going to be?  Very little effect at all.  Their diets still sucked.  You see, unless you literally lock these people up, and feed them under clinical conditions, and control every aspect of their diets in a TRUE scientifically accurate manner, you will come to understand very little about the effects of food on acne.  They NEVER did this.  I DID!  I controlled my diet religiously for years at a time in as close to a scientific manner as a human can out of a laboratory.  I was determined to find a connection.  I found many connections along the way.  None of which were enough to cure my acne, but they were effective in managing it.  I eventually took accutane twice and brought it to a near normal state.  7 years after my last course with accutane I am still mostly clear.  I can keep my skin looking mostly normal with a good cleansing and otc medication routine AND a careful diet.  The diet part comes as a neccesity for other reasons.  I am a serious (but not competetive) bodybuilder.  What I eat in the course of my week would cause most humans to die of boredom and commit suicide.  This is not because of my acne, its because of the nutritional needs I have as a bodybuilder.  I need massive amounts of protein and tons of calories.  Wanna hear what I eat most days?  I mean, 90% of what I eat for the past 5 years is this:  one loaf of bread, 3 pounds ground turkey, 10 bananas, apple sauce, a quart of rice milk, some salad at least once a day, and a gallon of water. Every once in a while I substitute chicken, maybe some rice.  I eat more regular and consistent than most dogs do.  NOW, when I eat pizza, peanut butter, tuna fish with mayo (which I love but rarely eat), I will almost invariably break out.  I have done this more times in the past 4 or 5 years than I can count.        How do you suppose that I came to understand the cause and effect relation between pizza and acne when I was 14 and just starting to get a few zits on occasion?  Think I read it somewhere?  No chance.  I didnt now anything about acne in that sense.  I just noticed that when I ate pizza (which I rarely ate because I have always eaten well), I broke out.        I'll tell you what.  You find some researchers who are willing to put it on the line and I will put myself in a clinical study, under lockand key, where they can monitor every single aspect of my diet and anatomy, and I will prove them wrong as many times as they would like. If i am wrong, they can shoot me and feed me to the hounds, If i am right, they can pay me a few million for my troubles.  Hows that for confidence?      Like I said before, the problem with MOST people diets is that they dont have one.  When they eliminate one of the so called no-no's of acne from their diet there are 10 more to take up the slack and as a result they notice zero improvement.  The same thing applies in most clinical studies that I am aware of.        You tell me its the placebo effect?  Well, how come that same placebo effect did not apply during these so called studies you claim are truth?  Did the people know what they were being studied for? Where did they find these people who were so unadulterated by the rest of us acne sufferers to put in their study?  If that is the case, then that is bad science on that alone!  What was the selection process like?   -Rip